HM3: Female update, update

At the urging of a couple of comments in the previous post, here's an updated version of the propose shoulders-square female figure. The new one's on the left, with "more finishing details" like toenails, better hands, etc. and slimmer hips, along with arms more akimbo:

3newfemales

Let me know your thoughts on these, which you prefer, etc.

65 Responses to HM3: Female update, update

  1. I think either of the ones on the ends are what you should be looking toward — especially if you are going to “part” them out. I can see the hip-cocked one with a hand on her hip as a put together pose. Or the other one with arms folded across her chest.

  2. To tell you the truth, I’d like to see all of them on the program, to allow for more choices.

  3. Like Hammerknight said, keep them all if you can for more options. Though if you are looking to get rid of one, make it the middle. If you want to get rid of two, keep the left one. I really like the right hand one, but from a costume design stand point, the left hand one would work better.

  4. I think the above comments have covered my feelings on the subject. ;-]

  5. DV! Where have you been?

    On topic: I think they all look great Jeff! It’d be good to see them all there, but if there’s only gonna be one, then I vote for the left one.

  6. Better, but my favorite is still the hip cocked one 🙂

  7. Let me ask all you hip-cock guys (as bad as that sounds), if you were able to position the left-most figure so it was in the right-most pose, how would you feel about that? What if the ability to pose it that way were available in a one-click fashion, and that making that one click would automatically rotate, position, and scale the various other item sets so they’d fit, where possible?

  8. Now that would be great, Jeff. I like the hip-cocked best and I’d be willing to accept any challenges that accompany that choice in costume-building, but if there was a possibilty to design the costume first and then choose pose, it would be awesome.

  9. I think Both the straight on with arms slightly spread, as well as the hip-cocked one should be included after all there are two different male bobies ( 3 if you count the zombie male ) to Choose from, the standard male body and the Military one. If I had to pick JUST ONE however I’d have to go with the Hip-Cocked one.

  10. I’m still voting for the hip-cocked chick. She’s got attitude, and a superheroine should have attitude!

  11. @Jeff: Does the hip-cocked female template have a single twin sister?

  12. If i could build my costume on the left most and then with a single click have it in the hip-cocked pose would be a good thing, though I still perfer the more Athletic look of the hip-cocked pose to the loo of the straight on pose

  13. I’ll be honest, I like the hip-cocked version better too. I think it’s a stronger drawing, the anatomy is better, and the pose is much more heroic. The major drawback is that it breaks away from the standard, specifically for the midriff. The rest of the Tops can probably be tweaked by the user to get a straight-on affair, it’s really the bottom part of a shirt that’s going to cause a problem.

    But maybe I could make the female Tops have both poses or something.

    That’s a consideration.

    Really, what I want is for the more casual user to be able to load up that female template and go “Wow, I like how that looks! Let’s dress her up!” The straight-on pose does that for the beefy male dude, but not for the female. There’s just no pizazz to it.

  14. Mhh… that “where possible” scares me, I like to have all the items fitting nicely.

    And what if we were able to position the RIGHT-most figure so it was in the LEFT-most pose? lol

    I prefer the Hip-Cocked one, but if you consider that it would be best to use the left-most one as the main, then should do it Jeff. After all you’re the one making all the hard work.

    Having predefined poses sounds great. If the hip-cocked body doesn’t become the main, then it should definitely be a predefined pose.

  15. I thought about that Neon — you can position the first pose to mimic the second, why not vice-versa? That’s a fairly compelling argument, I have to say.

  16. @Jeff: I don’t see a problem. After all, in earlier posts you said (if I understood you correctly) that all the items now in HM3 will have to be redrawn for the female template, so all the artist doing the female stuff has to do is draw the clothes to fit the hip-cocked female template.

  17. True Danny. Although I am actually doing the base template drawing myself now, and was always doing the redraws. I was thinking I might have to redraw the boots and gloves, which I was hoping to reuse, but it was always going to be a substantial amount of re-drawing regardless.

  18. @Jeff: If you’re doing the redraws, then what will that other artist be doing?

  19. Sorry if it wasn’t clear earlier, but the only thing the other artist was ever going to do was the base figure itself. I was always going to do everything else required for it. It was just the basic blank figure I didn’t feel like I could do a good job on. As the process went on, though, it became clear that the barrier wasn’t my lack of skill, it was the restraints of having to make the pose the same as the male, with the hands and feet and waist and such in more or less the same physical locations. It was distorting the figure and I (and the other artist as it turned out) were killing ourselves trying to make it work, when it just wasn’t really ever going to, no matter who drew it.

    Seeing their takes on it drove that point home and led to the aha moment earlier this week that if I just forgot the damn pose and drew a cool looking woman in a cool looking position, everything else would work itself out and I could do it. So I did. And I’m pretty pleased with the way it’s turning out, I have to say.

    So yeah, the other artist was a big help getting me to this point, but they were never intended to do anything but the base drawing.

    The way I see it, what needs to be converted over for sure are Tops, Legwear, Hair, Eyes, Lips, Heads, and maybe some of the Headgear stuff like the full masks that have built-in manly chins and whatnot.

    The rest of the stuff can probably be re-used as-is with a quick move to the right position. I don’t think I need to redraw all the shoulder pads, for instance, they ought to work regardless of what’s underneath them. Or Backplane stuff, you know? Insignia, etc. Only things that have to hug the outline of the figure are going to need a redraw from the male to fit the female. Hopefully.

    For some things I will probably have smaller sub-sets of female-specific items. For instance, I’ll probably have a FootRight-Feminine set that has new more feminine footwear (heels, strappy sandles, that kind of thing) in it. You could choose to use that on a male if you want, but more intended for a female character.

    Does that make sense?

  20. @Jeff: Understood. I look forward to what you come up with.

  21. Lots of sense.

  22. I think the furthest left pose and the hips-cocked pose are the best. I would personally go with the hips-cocked though because it gives more flow and character to them. Somehow the straight look doesn’t fit the girls like the guy pose; The hips pose is better and more unique. The only problem is it gives off a sensual look too, which could be far from the character or look of a female that you are trying to make. But I know asking you to do both poses would be far too much work and too difficult to accomidate all options to both, so I still say go with the hips-cocked pose.

  23. Rightmost one, no question, except… hip joints don’t work that way, Jeff. The left knee either needs to bend, or move out to the side, because if her pelvis is tilted that way but her feet are square (as depicted)it would mean her left leg is shorter.

    /artistic nitpick.

  24. I don’t usually use Hero Machine for heroes. I really like natural poses. I love the idea of clothing first and then the button that makes the hip pop out. I bet that would be difficult to program, but it would still be great when finished.

  25. dementedtheclown

    Left Ones Best, Hips Are Too Big, Legs are Too Close And Bewbz Arnt Round Enuff.

  26. The heck, dementedtheclown? She has a perfect hourglass and at least a D-cup.

    Just… move that left leg. >.>

  27. Sounds to me like that other artist was a hack.

  28. I really like both, though the hip pose is more natural, not all characters are going to have that position. So even just including both would be just fine most of the time i think. Perhaps in the final version when you’re implemented preset sizes and what not you could simply make the normal female and the hip stance different options and automatically everything would be formatted one way or the other

  29. Frankly, I would quite like a “masculine” pose for a female character anyway. Not all women are… feminine posers, bluntly put.

    I mean, in my tabletop, I have played — for example — a very aggressive female character of non-human species (but close enough to a standard human — an Eberron shifter which was conceptually based on Marvel’s Sabretooth), for whom that kind of pose would be ideal: the character is very much in your face and clawing it off if you look at her funny.

    Even so, the character (even if she is coyote ugly) is unmistakeably female in basic configuration.

    Also, what I would like as well would be… ahem… adjustable boobage. I mean… not every character I’ve played is a D-cup. Couple of them wouldn’t even fill A (one elf, and other one due to being a kid)!

  30. @PhoenixTallon (23): Good point about the positioning not being quite right, but for me it’s the head and not her left leg — the intent was a quasi-contra posto pose, with her stepping slightly forward (more of a lean than a step, even), which would keep the knees forward and the feet pointed slightly out. But for the hip to be cocked that way her upper torso and head would have to be over her right leg, which it’s not currently. I’ll fix that up. I’m happy with the off leg position, though.

  31. Having said that, technically her crotch should also be angled at the same tilt as the high waist line but then I’d have to rotate the belts and the pants’d be asymmetrical and that’s a can of worms I’d just as soon not open. So I’m willing to sacrifice a bit of anatomical accuracy in the interest of making it heroic and, frankly, a little easier on both me in the drawing, and the user in the positioning of the items.

  32. I find the left-most pose the best from the standpoint of easy to work on. Otherwise everything will need tweaking, simple flips won’t be as simple, and the right-most one has an odd kind of balance.

    Of course, if it’s possible to make a ‘change pose’ command that reliably adjusts most items then by all means proceed. It would be nice if the male figure had two poses as well.

  33. Ok, if it’s contraposto, then it should be the other foot in front. And yeah, I wasn’t going to bring up the crotchtilt. >.>

  34. The one on the left is a great improvement over the previous entries. Can’t wait to see the female section complete and uploaded. =D

    Mr. Q

  35. The idea of a ‘change pose’ command is one of the most brilliant ideas ever. Especially if you can implement it for both genders. (For an alternate male pose, what about the adult male in the Shakti HM? I always liked that one…)

    After seeing the one on the right (hip-cock) and then seeing the one on the left for the first time, I’ve got to say, I like the ‘feel’ of the one on the right, but the one on the left would be far, FAR more costume-designing-friendly.

  36. One other thing: the way the hands are oriented on all three of those samples might make masking hand-held objects into them more than a little difficult.

  37. I fully agree with Imp on the “change pose” command. To be able to design the character straight on(which would be easiest) the clicking a button to see the character change it’s pose would be great with just a second pose to us, but it would be out of the ball park great if there were more then one to choice from. The only thing that would cause a problem would be covering things up(example; white lined insignia to cover up a leg to make a peg leg person)and also masking, would these two miss it up for the change pose. One of my sons(a big time gamer)told me today that it would be very cool if games used HM in a 3D form to design the avatars with. I think it would be almost beyond cool just to be able to use a “change pose” command that would give you front,3/4,side, and back view. I know that would be a lot of work, but an idea for HM4. Back to the change pose, a action pose would be cool also, like running, flying, or fighting just to name a few. See Jeff this is what you get when you have good ideas and I can’t sleep. lol

  38. I feel like most of my comments have been voiced already, so I’m just going to go with this: Jeff, loose the middle one and you’re in business. I’ll be a very happy boy (HK’s 3D HM4 notwithstanding, though that would be better than apple pie, sliced bread, reinventing the wheel and making a better mouse trap all rolled up into one). 😉

  39. The change-pose command would be awesome, Jeff.

    @Hak: I’ve been around. I’ve just been waaaay too busy to do much in the way of extra-curricular activities, is all.

  40. I also like the left pose the best. Followed by the hip angled one. I think the straight on pose should be the base female form. I say keep all the poses or keep the middle one in parts.

    I am also for the change pose command as well.

    That being said, I agree with dementedtheclown’s comment #25. Her breasts don’t seem quite right. Also not every female character we make should all have D-cups. Perhaps adjustable breasts?

    Also just a reminder, Jeff. Could you include tattoos at some point? I, for one, have numerous characters that need tattoos for the ‘complete image’

  41. Something else I forgot to add, I notices the left and middle poses don’t have belly buttons…or nips for that matter 😉

  42. dementedtheclown

    @jeff I’d Love Two Girl Types, In Comicbook Art Theres Two Basic Girl Body types, The Petite Supergirl Type, n The More Mature Wonderwoman Type.

  43. I’ve been pretty clear that there’s only going to be one of each gender’s body template. I am not going to redraw every item multiple times. Period.

    HK, your pseudo-3D idea has been bandied around a lot in the back rooms here, but again, you’re talking a monumental drawing effort, as everything would have to be drawn three times at least. Not gonna happen.

    Demented, the breasts are drawn that way because they’re going to be in some sort of restraint, this isn’t Porno Machine.

    Tim, I’ve said already that there will be a torso-no-breasts option, along with separate breasts you can position and scale. Also, you can forget nipples on the female template. See PornoMachine, No, in the paragraph above.

    Tattoos are probably not going to be a separate slot. You can use any of the other items, particularly Insignia, as tattoos — make both colors the same, set them to some level of transparency, and mask it onto the body part you want. Instant tattoo. A separate set just for that seems redundant.

  44. dementedtheclown

    I’ve been pretty clear that there’s only going to be one of each gender’s body template. I am not going to redraw every item multiple times. Period.

    lol, These Like 5 Male Types Already, Pick A Female For Costume Design, Just Sayin, Would Be Nice To Have Both Normal Combook Girl Bodytypes At Some Point, I Can Scale n Proportion Myself. Kinda Sucks Hero Machines Being Made For The “Casual User”, Not The Fans.

  45. There is one Male body that is fully supported with items drawn for it and broken into parts, Demented. One. The Zombie, Warrior, and Toon are experiments and don’t fit all the items; that’s why you don’t see tops and legwear built for those bodies and why they’re just complete bodies, not broken into parts. I’d take them down eventually but people seem attached. Regardless, they’re legacies from the experimentation with this ALPHA product.

    If you think 3.0 is “made for the casual user”, there’s not a whole lot more I can say to you, because that’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve heard from a commenter to date.

  46. I still prefer the hip-cocked pose over either the new squared-off or the ability to hip-cock a figure. The reason is that it’s just a better more dynamic pose. It has feeling. You can’t get that with a simple algorithmic skew.

  47. I’ll tell you, my inclination is to go with the hip-cocked one for exactly the reasons cited by Brons. However, I played with it today and I was able to get a pseudo hip cocked stance with the static squared-off pose, but I couldn’t get a static squared-off pose with the hip-cocked one. That might end up being decisive. Mark Shute sent me a female character he did with the zombie female in the hip-cocked pose and it looks pretty darn good.

  48. You know, another thing to consider is cross uses of items. With a little scaling and positioning you could use some of the male specific stuff on the ‘squared off’ female that you couldn’t use on the hip cocked figure. (As we’ve already seen to great extent in the contest with the female zombie body.) Vice-versa with the female stuff.

    Just a thought.

    🙂 Have a Happy Halloween

  49. You’re right, Gene. I started out a big proponent of the more dynamic pose, but the longer I go, the more I lean towards the other one for utilitarian reasons. Decisions decisions …

  50. I’d be fine with straight on pose, so long as it had all the fiddley customizable bits of the male pose.

    …We will MAKE it work.

  51. Well i have been a long time HM user from the fist time i seen it way back on techTV. Personally the “Hip-cocked” female for HM3 looks like a throw back to something like one of the original female body-poses for HM:1 but the more i use HM3 and the more i look at the left most female body figure i think to all the interesting poses that have been made with just the basic male figure for HM3 and i ask myself “if jeff makes it multi-part like the male why do people need more then one pose for the female?”

    My opinion: If you can do all these wonderful and brilliant photos with the male figures then ya can do it with the female body types

  52. “My opinion: If you can do all these wonderful and brilliant photos with the male figures then ya can do it with the female body types”

    Excellent point…

  53. Heromachine 3 is definitely a tool for both the casual user AND the hardcore fan. There’s a nigh-infinite number of combinations with just the straight-on male model(something which casual users will very much appreciate), but it can be tweaked and played with to create any number of poses (both male & female), which should satisfy even the most hardcore of fans. It just takes time, patience, and skill in getting things just right. Jeff says the straight-on female model has already been used to create a working pose similar to the hip-cocked female model, so it can also be used to do far more than that.

  54. Well I perfer the hip-cocked pose but to be fair you can do it on your own if you want as exampled by the one this one I did made a while ago with a slight hip-cock …. done of course with the zombie body

    http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/Kaldath/YuriMoonDancer.png

  55. I say go with the left most one. It will be more versatile for making different poses and it will be easier to draw all of the pieces for it.

  56. “Kinda Sucks Hero Machines Being Made For The “Casual User”, Not The Fans.”

    I’m going to bet there are any number of “fans” out there who would completely and in no uncertain terms disagree with that statement.

  57. I’m a casual user, that’s a fan. Jeff has made a wonderful program for us to use, all you have to do is put feeling into your creation, take time and nurse it into what you want. I like the challenge of the build and I’m glad that there is not a button in HM3 that says “random design” or “complete design” so all you have to do is push the button and the character is done.(That would be the lazy button if you ask me)HM3 has all the material you need to make a master piece, all you have to do is use it.

  58. “Kinda Sucks Hero Machines Being Made For The “Casual User”, Not The Fans.”

    I’m just gonna say, if HM3 is made for the casual user, we wouldn’t be posting here. Jeff takes our ideas openly and uses them. A large portion of HM3 is probably thought up by us, the fans, the users, and the commenters in general.

  59. You know after thinking about it again and again i had an idea and a possible suggestion.

    Since a lot of people like the “hip-cocked” pose and HM# will only have one body-pose for each gender i was thinking of how in the male body the standard body has multi-parts and what not, why not make the hip part of the torso its own part as well.

    I understand that there may more then likely be some re-drawing involved but … its still and idea.

  60. Merrick, it’s like you were sitting right behind me watching me draw the BodyFemaleStandard set about two hours ago … 🙂

  61. seriously? wow lol i had been thinking about that since the other night. like i said was thinking of the re-draws that would need to be done and all and asking myself “if i were in his position would it be easy to make pre-made ‘morph’ buttons or make more body parts”

  62. The plan has always been to have the exact same options (at least) for the female body set as for the male. So you’ll have the crossed arms, flying legs, etc., plus a set of (at this point) three differently-sized breasts (A cup, “default” which you’ve seen, and which look more like they’re held in by cloth or spandex or whatnot, and a “D” set). And while I was at it, I went ahead and threw in the hip-cocked legs, and the hip-cocked torso.

  63. I’m disapointed there won’t be any nipples… What if I want to Joel-Shumacherize a character? ;p

  64. I had previously chose not to include this as part of my first post on this topic but other peoples opinions and or comments should at least be addressed even if i do agree.

    Nipples:
    Jeff has already said there will not be any as far as his inclusion of items for the “standard” set, i whole heartedly agree that HM3 should not turn into “Porn-pics-made-easy” in any way shape or form.

    That said i have experimented with subtle little tweaks of the program from inside out, i don’t have the eye for detail that Hammerknight and a few others have, but i can make interesting little things. my point is for any one with even a little imagination and the base understanding of scaling an object and moving said object can make a pseudo-nipple of their very own if that is what you desire.

    Me personally i could really care less if the female body or even the male body had nipples cause 89% of the time when you make a character you cover up the chest [ noted in others creations along with my own].

  65. Agreed. I prefer the left one; More versatile and also easier to design costumes.