The Avengers vs. The Empire

Let’s say instead of random aliens coming through the wormhole in the “Avengers” movie, it was actually the Galactic Empire, led by Darth Vader, fully-functional Death Star and all. In the same scenario as the movie — a fully prepared invasion in force trying to establish a beachhead in Manhattan, opposed by the Avengers — who do you think would come out on top?

Let’s say up front that Vader doesn’t have the same kind of personality quirks and psychological imperatives as Loki. Loki is a trickster, delighting in sowing dissent and discord, preferring to take the back-stabbing approach rather than a more confrontational stance. Mostly.

Vader is arguably more aggressive and willing to fight head-to-head. He’s led massive military efforts before, better fitting the role of general. Plus, while Loki has a mind-control stick, Vader has a light saber.

In terms of the armies at their disposal, it seems like both the Empire and the Chitauri have about the same level of pilot skill. Namely, they can mostly avoid flying directly into solid objects as long as they’re not too distracted. We’re not exactly talking the Red Baron here in either case.

Regardless, you have to admit it would be pretty awesome to see Hawkeye shooting TIE fighters out of the sky, massive AT-ATs wading down Wall Street while the Hulk smashes them to bits, Iron Man dodging blaster fire through skyscrapers, Thor calling lightning down on Star Destroyers, Black Widow firing widows’ bites at Vader while he blocks them with his light saber, and Captain America wading through waves of Stormtroopers.

I’d still go with the Avengers over the Empire, largely playing out the same way it did against the Chitauri. Except for the ending, which would have Iron Man zipping along the Death Star trench to fire at the portal with his repulsor beams, Thor picking off TIE fighters as he advances. Because apparently the Empire and the Chitauri both buy their giant space ships from the same supplier.

84 Responses to The Avengers vs. The Empire

  1. I’d say it depends on the end goal of the Empire. If they actually want to take over Earth to gain resources or establish a base or whatever, the Avengers might actually win, because the Empire would have to hold back in its power in order to ensure that Earth would still be useful to them. However, if the Empire simply wanted Earth out of the way, they’d just use that giant laser on the Death Star to instantly destroy Earth altogether.

  2. MisterDinoMan

    Hulk eats stormtroopers for lunch. I’m going to with the Avengers on this one.

  3. Hey Jeff, I think you might have forgotten to add the actual poll/vote-thingy to this week’s Poll Position. That or we’re just supposed to tell you our vote in the comments, in which case I’m voting for the Empire, since it’s an entire galaxy-wide empire of millions of soldiers all armed with above-Stark level technology and planet-destroying weaponry against a handful of guys all living on the same planet.

  4. well, an avenger team without its founding couple(the wasp and Giant man) is kind of sad, and seriously Vader’s charisma would turn earth’s population against the avengers, for the awesome of having freaking Dark for leader, and stormtroopers as policemen.
    so it will be pretty quick.

  5. Gero: Hey Jeff, I think you might have forgotten to add the actual poll/vote-thingy to this week’s Poll Position.

    Duh. I’m an idiot. Up now, thanks for the alert, Gero.

  6. They must buy their targetting systems at the same place, too, ‘cuz they all shoot like Indians in Cowboy movies. Light sabers are nothing against Mjolnir or Cap’s Vibranium shield, so it’s the Avengers for me. Even the John Steed / Emma Peel Avengers could take Stormtroopers!

  7. How many space empires have the avengers beaten already? One more won’t make much of a difference. If a farm boy and a space pirate can beat the empire, the assembled Avengers will make mincemeat of them.

  8. I’d love to see The Hulk rampaging through the corridors of the Death Star like he does in the helicarrier, hurling Storm Troopers to their death.

    Of course you run the risk of him getting sucked out into space. Eventually he stops being pissed, reverts to Banner, and it’s helloooooo decompression!

  9. Jeff Hebert:
    I’d love to see The Hulk rampaging through the corridors of the Death Star like he does in the helicarrier, hurling Storm Troopers to their death.

    Of course you run the risk of him getting sucked out into space. Eventually he stops being pissed, reverts to Banner, and it’s helloooooo decompression!

    What *I* want to see is Hulk picking up an AT-ST walker and using it as a club beat all the other Imperial hardware to scrap.

  10. MrChowderhead

    Even though I’m a much bigger SW fan than The Avengers, The Avengers take this round easily unless the Death Star just arrives suddenly over Earth and immediately destroys the planet without any advance warning. If the Care Bears can take out a legion of the Empire’s “best troops”, I’m sure The Hulk and Thor can do so too.

  11. This is completely unrelated, but I keep getting updates via email telling me of new comments on this blog post. I did not select to receive such updates, and twice I have attempted to deactivate my subscription. The subscription page says I am not subscribed to anything, yet I keep getting emails.

  12. I think it depends not only on the motivation of the Empire (if they decide to blow up the Earth with the Death Star superlaser, Avengers don’t stand a chance), but also how active a role Vader plays in an invasion, should the Empire decide that way (and consequently, how coordinated the Avengers attack on Vader is, given they never attacked Loki en masse in the movie, I have my doubts on this). Needless to say, I see the confrontation between Darth Vader and Hulk in Tony’s office ending far differently than it did with Loki, generally with Hulk dying from a crushed windpipe and a smoking stump for a right arm. Against Vader one-on-one, most of the Avengers don’t stand a chance, with probably Thor providing the most challenge. And should Vader defeat the Avengers, relying on SHIELD to protect us is futile, given that your run of the mill SHIELD agent is about as useless as a Stormtrooper.
    Finally, might I remind you, that the aliens did have the Avengers pinned down near the end, and the only thing that saved them was Iron Man flying a nuke into their mothership and then having Black Widow close the portal, causing all the aliens to go dead after being cut off from their home dimension. Even if the nuke hit the Death Star (provided it didn’t fly down a vulnerable thermal exhaust port), the damage would be significant, but hardly enough to take it out of action, while cutting off the invading Imperial forces from their home dimension won’t cause them to suddenly go lifeless. More likely, they’ll opt to destroy everything out of spite.
    This would make an epic battle, but I’ve got Empire on this one.

  13. My lil brother says empire I say Avengers

  14. Vader – ” I have a light saber!”
    Iron Man- “We have a Hulk.” :)
    ’nuff said!

  15. The Chitauri didn’t seem to have a battle plan aside from “shoot stuff up and act real scary like” probably because that’s what Loki told them would work best against the Puny Earthlings. On the other hand, the Empire actually has some grasp of basic tactics. They also have a much larger fleet of ships to call on than the Chitauri, and they don’t need the tesseract to get that fleet to Earth (hyperdrive works just fine, thank you very much). And the Imperials would not have a problem with bombarding Earth from orbit with turbolasers, something the Avengers would have a tough time countering.

    Additionally, the Imperial soldiers wouldn’t keel over dead even if the Avengers did manage to blow up one of their capital ships, so there’s that.

    I’m not saying the Avengers couldn’t beat the Empire, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

  16. Kelex:
    How many space empires have the avengers beaten already?One more won’t make much of a difference.If a farm boy and a space pirate can beat the empire, the assembled Avengers will make mincemeat of them.

    Uh, a farm boy and a space pirate didn’t beat the Empire. It took the entire Rebel Alliance to do that. And they paid in blood for every inch of space they took.

  17. Myro:
    Finally, might I remind you, that the aliens did have the Avengers pinned down near the end, and the only thing that saved them was Iron Man flying a nuke into their mothership and then having Black Widow close the portal, causing all the aliens to go dead after being cut off from their home dimension.

    Also, the Chitauri in the movie could only reach Earth through the portal, meaning only a limited number of them could get through at a time. If they were able to bring their entire fleet to bear at once, the battle might have gone very differently.

  18. ….and every drop of blood and every inch of space wouldn’t have mattered if not for the wamp rat tageteer and a later revised golden hearted pirate….

    Its not even close, the Avengers decimate the Empire. The death star is a one trick pony. Tony and his fantastic quips can find the ventilation port and with greater alacrity I might add. Hulk, man-whore he-bitch slaps Vader and Thor brings the final blow down apon the AARP rep called the Emperor. Don’t like that scenario, reverse the roles of Hulk and Thor. The out come is still the same. AND THATS ONLY 3 OF THEM!!!

    I MEAN SERIOUSLY. Take down the dude in black, his anti-ageing cream boss and the eye surgey on steroids and they are freakin done. And don’t give me the woojy woo of the force crap either. By all mean though, force lightning the god of thunder all day and tell me where it gets you.

    Empire…stick to picking on defenseless people and planets full of diplomats with cinnabon hair.

  19. Big Mac:
    ….and every drop of blood and every inch of space wouldn’t have mattered if not for the wamp rat tageteer and a later revised golden hearted pirate….

    And that wamp rat targeter and golden hearted pirate would have been hunted down and executed if they didn’t have a massive Rebel army to back them up. Do you really intend to go around in circles with this? Luke and Han Solo were NOT the only people who defeated the Empire. Case closed.

    Its not even close, the Avengers decimate the Empire. The death star is a one trick pony.

    Yeah, and that “one trick” just happens to be blowing up planets. If the Empire brings the Death Star to bear the Avengers have nothing to counter it.

    And don’t give me the woojy woo of the force crap either.

    Yes, by all means completely disregard anything that’s inconvenient to your argument. That’s the only real way to debate.

  20. While Myro makes a good argument, the one big problem with the empire is that its run by overconfident people who tend to get undermined by their own ineptitude. The Emperor thought that he had an easy win over Luke and the rebels, only to be undone by a bunch of midget teddy bears and his own Sith Lord/apprentice. Unless the Empire had an airtight plan of attack, you can expect the following:

    Hulk plowing through waves of Stormtroopers like a lime-flavored Kool-Aid Man.

    SHIELD with the helicarrier and Quinjets, along with Black Widow and Hawkeye on the ground, picking off TIE Fighters and additional troopers like tin cans on a fence.

    The trinity (Shell head, Cap, Goldilocks) taking on Vader and the Emperor that leads to an ultimate smackdown with the Emperor vs Captain America wielding the power of Thor after lifting the enchanted hammer.

    But that’s how I see it play out in my head. ^^;

    Mr. Q

  21. I voted for the Avengers, just because Thor is literally a god and Hulk is basically unkillable, but it really comes down to a few facts that unfortunately we don’t know. For instance, how powerful is the average Stormtrooper’s blaster? We know it’s basically a 1-shot, 1-kill weapon, so I imagine when Cap got shot in the movie, that would have been game over. If Darth Vader can block blaster fire with his hand and kill people with a thought, then Cap, Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Nick Fury really don’t stand any chance whatsoever against him. Iron Man’s armor wouldn’t protect him if Vader initiated a Force Choke, which he can do even over vast distances via hologram. If his lightsaber could affect Hulk or Thor then they would probably go down as well, but we have no idea if it would or not. Also, this is kind of a long shot, but if the old “Jedi Mind Trick” could be used to make Hulk not angry anymore, he’d be dead (though I can’t imagine why they would even think of that). Overall, I think Thor and Hulk would give them a run for their money, and potentially stop the invasion (only because the Empire has nothing that could stop them…). It would just suck really bad for every normal person in the city, including the other Avengers…

  22. if the empire are smart enough they will use the death star immediately no other wise the avengers have it

  23. Movie Avengers alone are insufficient to stop the full Empire. If nothing else the Empire will simply nuke from orbit whichever section of the planet has the Avengers on it and then set up their base the next city over. Full Avengers would be able to repel them, with the addition of such talents as Dr. Strange, Scarlet Witch, Quasar or Nova, etc.

  24. Reading the comments I’m becoming increasingly convinced that this would be the awesomest nerd movie of the decade. However, I think realistically the Empire would win this one. Whether or not the Empire’s goal is to take the planet intact, I could see Vader eventually vaporizing it out of spite if things started to look too inconvenient.

    Also, while the Death Star does have a huge weakness in the exhaust port, I have my doubts as to whether or not the Avengers & co. would be able to find out about that in time to exploit it. It’s not like the rebels in Star Wars just looked at the thing and said “oh, hey, there’s a tiny exhaust port there that we can use to blow this whole thing up;” it took quite a bit of spying and planning to get that coordinated, and if the Death Star just showed up one day out of nowhere, we can’t necessarily expect them to get the plans for the Death Star before the whole planet was already under the Empire’s rule (unless one of the Avengers has seen Star Wars, that is…).

    Woody brings up a good point about using the Jedi Mind Trick on Hulk. I don’t know if it could necessarily be used to calm him down, but considering that Hulk isn’t exactly the brightest crayon in the box when he’s enraged, I think he’d definitely fit into the “weak-minded” category that is most susceptible to the trick. The Emperor and Vader are both excellent manipulators even without using the Mind Trick, and I could see them somehow convincing Hulk to actually join them.

    Thor does pose a fairly significant problem, but I don’t think even he could fight the Empire alone for very long. Actually, I can picture a scenario where all the super-humans except Thor and a few others are killed or turned almost immediately in the first invasion of the Empire, and then we see them months or years later having joined the rebels in a dystopian universe ruled by the empire, still fighting the best they can behind the scenes, biding their time until they get an opening to topple the Empire once and for all. Actually, that would also be pretty awesome movie. I’d pay to see that.

    Of course, this whole argument is ignoring the very biggest trump card in the Avengers’ deck: “Good Guys Always Win.” ;)

    But without that trump card I’d say Empire wins. (At least until Thor & co. manage to get a successful rebellion going, but that could be awhile, if the planet is even still there at the end of the fight.)

  25. By the way, to those arguing that the Empire could get their ships to Earth without using the portal thingy in the movie, I would remind you that the Empire is “in a galaxy far, far away” from Earth. While they do have hyperdrive that allows faster than light travel, there is still some time involved in travel, and considering how much time it can take to just get across the SW galaxy, I’d say it’s not really a viable option to call in more troops using hyperdrive.

    It might work to use hyperdrive for the original attack force, and then use the wormhole for backup, though, except that SW is also “a long time ago,” so technically there’d have to be some time travel involved in the Empire’s coming to Earth, as well. Which either means the FTL travel available in the SW universe is still realistically slow enough that it took all that time for them to travel from another galaxy to here and as predicted in the theory of relativity those traveling at such speeds don’t feel the time passing, or they’d have to use the wormhole.

    This slight setback does not change my opinion that the Empire would win.

  26. Woody:
    I voted for the Avengers, just because Thor is literally a god and Hulk is basically unkillable, but it really comes down to a few facts that unfortunately we don’t know. For instance, how powerful is the average Stormtrooper’s blaster? We know it’s basically a 1-shot, 1-kill weapon, so I imagine when Cap got shot in the movie, that would have been game over. If Darth Vader can block blaster fire with his hand and kill people with a thought, then Cap, Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Nick Fury really don’t stand any chance whatsoever against him. Iron Man’s armor wouldn’t protect him if Vader initiated a Force Choke, which he can do even over vast distances via hologram. If his lightsaber could affect Hulk or Thor then they would probably go down as well, but we have no idea if it would or not. Also, this is kind of a long shot, but if the old “Jedi Mind Trick” could be used to make Hulk not angry anymore, he’d be dead (though I can’t imagine why they would even think of that). Overall, I think Thor and Hulk would give them a run for their money, and potentially stop the invasion (only because the Empire has nothing that could stop them…). It would just suck really bad for every normal person in the city, including the other Avengers…

    the blasters in SW are not always lethal. leia got shot in Jedi. i gotta give it up to Avengers. It has been established that Vaders prosthesis actually weakens him. he is not near as powerful as he could have been. i think wed see the same thing happen to him that happened to Loki. hed go to use the mind-trick but Hulk in the comics has defied Xavier attempting to control his mind. puny Sith. and stormtroopers are just asinine. Cap and Hawkeye and Black Widow would wreck them. as for the Death Star i figure Tony would just have Jarvis hack it, download the schematic and Thor sends a lightning bolt into the exhaust port. i would like to see Vader vs Captain America tho.

  27. Leia got grazed in the movie. Cap took a gut shot. I have no idea if the Mind Trick would work on Hulk, but if he can resist Professor X then there’s no way (depending on who’s writing it…). Stormtroopers may be asinine in the movies, but if you take them for what they’re supposed to be, an invasion of Stormtroopers would be devastating. I honestly think Cap vs Vader would be the shortest fight ever. Really, Cap’s biggest weakness is any power that he can’t dodge or block. Even if Vader didn’t want to Force Choke him right off the bat, he could telekinetically beat him with his own shield before going for the killing blow.

  28. SETI notices Deathstar approach. Stark & Romanov to hack / reverse engineer. Tony sends Hulk to Death Valley and sends Vader msg: if you kill the Hulk, you get the planet. As forces approach, Iron Man plays wingman to any ace pilot with Hawkeye as space-suited shooter. Thor hammering ships from the ground. Our regular military plus Cap’n should handle anything that gets through. Um–Hawkeye might need one of Rambo’s exploding arrows . . .

  29. spidercow2012

    “No, Tony…I am your father!

  30. While the Avengers, a handful of heroes, made short work of a full-on alien invasion in less than 2 hours, the entire Empire couldn’t take out a small band of rebels in several years. Plus, they got their collective asses handed to them by a bunch of warrior teddy bears. Plus, the Avengers have a Hulk…. ‘Nuff said.

  31. Doornik1142: And that wamp rat targeter and golden hearted pirate would have been hunted down and executed if they didn’t have a massive Rebel army to back them up.

    If that were true, they would have both been dead before the first movie started. People who can see the future have no excuse for not seeing it coming.

    Doornik1142: Yeah, and that “one trick” just happens to be blowing up planets. If the Empire brings the Death Star to bear the Avengers have nothing to counter it.

    So…why exactly is the Empire traveling all the millions (billions? Far Far Awayians) of light-years from the Galaxy Far Far Away to the Earth…just to blow it up? If they’re coming here, they have a reason to do so. they won’t be blowing the Earth up with their opening gambit. And the Death Star isn’t known for its speed. By the time they enter the solar system, the Avengers know about them. By the time they get past Mars, Stark has hacked into their systems and knows every possible weakness and design flaw (all without ANY Bothans losing their lives)

    And yeah, it really was pretty much just Han and Luke. The rest of the rebels were cannon fodder. Without them, Farmboy and Scruffy would have still found a way to win.

  32. Okay doornik…I get it. Luke and Han had help. At the end of the day though, it was the dirt farmer who blew up the first death star, and the debt motivated scoundrel that set him up for the assist….If Han doesn’t show up to knock Vader out the way, the Luke doesn’t make that last shot…Rebel Alliance be damned.

    The death star is bitch made when talking about a fight with the Avengers. Seriously. All you have to do is drop Hulk off there and the rest will be taken care of. Thats assuming of course that Thor hasn’t destroyed it first, or Tony hasn’t taken it over. (hey, if some goofball droid bounty hunter can take over the death star, I think Tony Stark can…) They may be able to blow up a planet, but the Avengers have delt with the entire Kree empire and they have a weapon called a Nega bomb that makes the Death Star look like a cap gun. They can deal with the doom laden disco ball.

    I’m discounting the force because its rendered rather useless. I mean the comparison is a guy with a permanent inhaler using his zen voodoo and a light baton against a GOD. What are you going to do? Use force lightning on Thor? Maybe you can attempt to choke the Hulk. Either way, good luck being on the recieving end of it

    Lastly, if 12 rebels and a box of crackers can take out the moon base of Endor with the aid of the begotten love children of Cousin It and Danny Devito, then i think the Avengers will do just fine.

    P.S. Dr. Doom mops the floor with Darth Vader.

  33. Sean Murphy

    I agree with everything in hour description Jeff except the last bit Iron Man wouldn’t be able to take advantage of the vulnerability in the Death Star, the exhaust port was “ray-shielded”. However, it would be Stark who found the vulnerability, and Thor flying down the trench to hurl his hammer into the exhaust port, continuing past on momentum and being pulled safely away by Iron Man. Later, Mjolnr would come flying back to his hand.

  34. Big Mac:
    I’m discounting the force because its rendered rather useless.I mean the comparison is a guy with a permanent inhaler using his zen voodoo and a light baton against a GOD. What are you going to do? Use force lightning on Thor? Maybe you can attempt to choke the Hulk. Either way, good luck being on the recieving end of it

    Your concept of God is a little mislaid. I mean, even in the Thor movie, it was proven that Asgardians aren’t even immortal. Vader starts Force crushing Thor’s trachea, and Thor starts dying. Now try to explain how irrelevant the Force is.

    Everyone’s faith in Tony Stark’s ability to hack into the Death Star is also a little mislaid. The technology used by the Empire is considerably more advanced than anything that Tony has had access to. In both the comics and the Avengers animated series, Tony Stark has claimed to have problems making heads or tails of the tech used by Kang the Conqueror, which was built 1000 years in the future from the current time line, and even then, by Tony’s own admission, at least that had a root in Stark technology. There is no common ancestor of the technology that the Empire uses. Their computers probably don’t use an operating system that has any commonality with Earth technology. So, again, good luck with that.
    Sorry, the Empire takes some big losses, but in the end, the Avengers lose.

  35. there are tons of stormtroopers, and they would quickly kill most of the lesser avengers, and vader would force-crush most of the rest. hulk would eat a few stormtroopers, and thor would get into a lightning power-lock with sidious, but then vader would force-throw hulk into thor, and loki would steal thor’s hammer, and the troopers would shoot hulk and thor.
    Empire wins

  36. the creator

    the empire would have a Pyrrhic victory, but a victory none the less. Darth Vader would die (Thor or iron man would fry is cybernetics, rendering him rather useless) but nor before killing a few members. no matter how incompetent, the numerically superior stormtroopers could take out another member. The survivors would have no other choice to retreat and fight a guerilla war, which they would win.

  37. Seriously, guys… Even if the Empire wanted to leave Earth intact for whatever reason, they’d probably destroy it out of spite when things get ugly for them after a few rounds of ground combat, as has been pointed out. Tony Stark wouldn’t be able to hack the Death Star due to the Death Star’s OS and even hardware realistically having absolutely nothing in common with anything Tony was familiar with, as has been pointed out. I’ve changed my mind since my first post. The only way the Avengers would win, and I do mean the ONLY way, is through a phlebotinum-powered plot device that rarely seems to go unused, which is that the Good Guys always win, as has been pointed out. Even then, that’s in a Hollywood movie scenario, not a realistic one.

    That said, I’m still getting emails regarding updates on this blog post, and I don’t want to continue to receive these updates. Refer back to when I first complained about this earlier. No one has said anything about how to fix this, or if someone else is going to fix it, or anything like that.

  38. Vader starts Force crushing Thor’s trachea, and Thor starts dying.Now try to explain how irrelevant the Force is.

    So why can’t Thor break free?? They’re used to ‘trachea crushing’ mortals. Not full on thunder gods or the Hulk with an almost unimgineable strength level to fight off telekenisis force grabs. NOT TO MENTION Thor doesn’t need to breath, and if he does someone should tell him because he does alot of flying in space without a suit or helmet.

    The force is cool and all, but it seems to be the all encompasing final card played by star wars guy. Dude, words out on the force…and we know it really aint all that. Its basically a zen religion with telekinesis, pre-cognition and a few other exagerations of the mind and lightning for a few select others. Its NOT the end all beat stick that no one knows how to defeat or deal with. Its treated that way in star wars because no one in star wars has thier own superpowers.

    The Avengers battle the likes Loki and Doctor Doom. They’ve seen woojy woo goodness, and beaten it. Thier isn’t a damn thing Vader can do that Doom either hasn’t done or couldn’t do, and they’ve been able to beat him to.

  39. Just to clarify…I’m not a Star Wars hater…I just think they’ve picked the wrong fight. It happens. Take the rebel alliance for instance.

    I dig the Empire and if they were fighting Aliens, Predators, Borg, E.T.’s, or the Kardashians I would TOTALLY pick the Empire. They’d be fighting the Avengers…Heroes who’s hearts and souls are tested in battle against the forged steel of evil on a regular basis. These arn’t a rag tag group of peasents or your brow beaten citizen afraid of Darth Vader and his murderous rowe of Stormtroopers. They’re the damn Avengers, and this is what they do.

  40. Patriot_Missile

    I voted for Vader. I’m with the peeps that say that soon after the Avengers flex their collective muscles, the Death Star fires through the portal (or from its location far, far away). The end? Nah, the good guys ALWAYS win.

  41. Sorry, it’s gotta be the Empire… Kind of hard for even a Thunder God to call down Lightning Bolts (atmospheric phenomena, remember?) in the depths of Outer Space! Hulk can’t superleap much past Lunar orbit, while the Star Destroyers have a good bit more range than that, and don’t have to worry about holding their breath. Arrows and Natasha’s weaponry have even less range, and Tony’s armor isn’t going to hold out long against Turbolaser fire! And, yeah, Cap’s shiled might take that much firepower… but it won’t do him much good if the the entire North American continent is reduced to molten magma beneath his feet, now will it? Plus, the Empire (the whole thing, not just one task force) has 250,000 Star Destroyers! :eek:
    On the other hand, if it’s just The Avengers versus “Little Orphan Annie” (aka Darth “I used to be bad, but now I’m just sad) Vader, that’s no more than a 5-minute short…

  42. A very interesting discussion, for sure.

    Originally I was thinking of the same scenario as the movie — a wormhole opening through which the outer-space forces must maneuver, into downtown Manhattan, with the Avengers trying to fight them off before a beachhead can be established.

  43. While I voted for the Avengers (…probably because we’re all coming off a sweet, sweet geek high from the recent blockbuster movie), Myro’s points actually made sense as to why the Empire would defeat them. I mean, sure, there are scenarios in which the Avengers could take out the Death Star, even defeating Vader and the Emperor– but that’s just a fraction of the Empire.

    And as far as Dr. Doom is concerned…well, there have been several “What-ifs” with Doom triumphant, “Secret Wars” (…Doom usurping the Beyonder’s powers and waylaying not just the Avengers, but the FF, X-Men, and everyone else dumb enough to stand in his way.), and even a story, “Emperor Doom” in which he took over the planet for a time. Now, Dr. Doom vs The Empire…

    :)

  44. Myro:
    Everyone’s faith in Tony Stark’s ability to hack into the Death Star is also a little mislaid.The technology used by the Empire is considerably more advanced than anything that Tony has had access to.In both the comics and the Avengers animated series, Tony Stark has claimed to have problems making heads or tails of the tech used by Kang the Conqueror, which was built 1000 years in the future from the current time line, and even then, by Tony’s own admission, at least that had a root in Stark technology.There is no common ancestor of the technology that the Empire uses.Their computers probably don’t use an operating system that has any commonality with Earth technology.So, again, good luck with that.
    Sorry, the Empire takes some big losses, but in the end, the Avengers lose.

    My thoughts exactly. There is no evidence to support the idea that Steve Jobs or Steve Wozniak ever went to any galaxy besides ours, and the Empire hardly uses Windows. (That would be pretty funny, though: Vader: “Fire!” [waits a few moments as nothing happens] Vader: “I said, ‘Fire!'” Unlucky Lieutenant: “I-I’m sorry, my Lord, we’ve got a slight technical problem.” Vader: “Is there a problem with the lasers, Lieutenant?” Lieutenant: “N-no, my Lord, it’s the software…we’ve got the Blue Screen…” Vader: “WILLIAM GATES, YOU HAVE FAILED ME FOR THE LAST TIME!”)

  45. logosgal: My thoughts exactly. There is no evidence to support the idea that Steve Jobs or Steve Wozniak ever went to any galaxy besides ours, and the Empire hardly uses Windows.

    Everyone knows they use the Apple OS, as Jeff Goldblum showed so ably in “ID4″.

  46. Jeff Hebert: Everyone knows they use the Apple OS, as Jeff Goldblum showed so ably in “ID4″.

    Oh, yes, my mistake. Because all aliens everywhere model their computer software after the Independence Day aliens’. I guess I’ll just go ahead and retract my whole argument. </sarcasm> ;)

  47. Myro: Everyone’s faith in Tony Stark’s ability to hack into the Death Star is also a little mislaid. The technology used by the Empire is considerably more advanced than anything that Tony has had access to.

    Well, no. Based on the movies I’ve seen, Tony Stark has cast-offs in his basement that are higher tech than anything I’ve seen Vader using.

    As for the Force Choke thing, that might work on Hawkeye or Black Widow. But both Hulk and Thor can hold their breaths for well over an hour, and are resilient enough to withstand the damage to their necks (if any such occurred)

    That fight basically goes down like this: Vader grabs the Hulk in a Foce Choke. Hulk responds with his ever-popular Sonic Boom Hand Clap, tossing Vader across the room. While Vader is picking himself up off the floor, Hulk jumps on him and either tears his prostheses off or just repeats his “fight” with Loki. “Puny sith.” Same with Thor, except instead of a Sonic Clap, Vader gets a face full of Mjolnir. The rest would be pretty much the same.

    As for Force Lightning? Luke took the Emperor’s worst and came away without any serious damage. Would the god of the storm even NOTICE? I say thee, nay. The only people in the group who would be threatened would be Hawkeye and Widow.

    I say again, the only way the Empire wins this is if they use the Death Star as their first round attack. Which would make no sense whatsoever given the distance they’d traveled to get here, only to blow up whatever it was they came here for.

  48. “I say thee nay!” Good quote there, Kelex!

  49. Kelex:
    As for the Force Choke thing, that might work on Hawkeye or Black Widow.But both Hulk and Thor can hold their breaths for well over an hour, and are resilient enough to withstand the damage to their necks (if any such occurred)

    Question: Is that actually how the Force Choke works? A normal human may not be able to hold his breath as long as Thor or Hulk, but he can go at least half a minute or so without air. Looking at the way the Force Choke victims gasp for air over a fairly prolonged time, I would guess that probably Vader is indeed closing their windpipes.

    However, it is possible to “choke” someone by cutting off the blood supply to their brain instead, which is much faster (if I remember correctly it takes about 8 seconds to knock someone out that way) and is less likely to be survivable by our hardier heroes. It’s also fairly easy to do if you know how, and I think Vader would be able to make the minor change necessary once he figured out that going for the windpipe wasn’t working.

  50. Okay, I’m willing to concede that Thor and Hulk could withstand a Force Choke, at least initially, although there is a world of difference between hyperventilating your lungs and taking a deep breath to hold your breath, and suddenly having your ability to breathe stolen from you. I’m not interested in the Force Lightning argument, simply given that Vader hasn’t shown any ability to generate Force Lightning canonically.
    No actual argument has been raised about the fact that the Chitauri were able to overwhelm the Avengers with sheer numbers, and with what I can tell, the Empire has even greater numbers at their disposal, and they lack the magical “off switch” that stopped the Chitauri invasion cold. Nor is there a convincing argument as to why the Empire, even if they wouldn’t bother to destroy the Earth outright, wouldn’t use a couple Star Destroyers to lay orbital bombardment on Manhattan, reduce it to slag, and then, with the Avengers likely killed, move on to, say, Philadelphia or Washington to set up shop there.
    We’re talking about a galactic military machine that conquered thousands of worlds. I still find it hard to believe that they would be stopped by six individuals, no matter how powerful they are. Now willing to answer your counter arguments regarding the Kree and Skulls Empires.

  51. Myro: No actual argument has been raised about the fact that the Chitauri were able to overwhelm the Avengers with sheer numbers, and with what I can tell, the Empire has even greater numbers at their disposal, and they lack the magical “off switch” that stopped the Chitauri invasion cold.

    Okay, yes, the superhuman Chitauri nearly overwhelmed them with numbers. The merely human Hydra troops try the same trick every other month and it never works. Which of those groups most closely resemble the clone troopers of the Empire? They’re only human. Any of the enhanced Avengers could withstand an infinite number of Stormtroopers. And the human Avengers could handle a few dozen apiece without breaking a sweat.

    Myro: We’re talking about a galactic military machine that conquered thousands of worlds. I still find it hard to believe that they would be stopped by six individuals, no matter how powerful they are. Now willing to answer your counter arguments regarding the Kree and Skulls Empires.

    Well, since you countered your own argument, I don’t see any need to add more to that.

  52. I will agree a ground war would probably turn bad for the Empire, I don’t think they have anything that could stop Hulk or Thor, probably not Stark either. That said, I still don’t see anything to stop the Empire from slagging the city with a Star Destroyer either, even the Hulk could only take so much turbolaser fire. Without introducing some of the Avengers who can compete at the Marvel cosmic level, there simply isn’t anything that can be done about them.

  53. Ploughed Jester

    In all reality, this confrontation would come down to one deciding factor… what Thor are we dealing with? Is Thor filled with the full on god sauce that is shown in some instances or just the super buff yet toned down Storm-esque weather control? If it’s the former with Thor made of win, this is an easy Avengers victory. If he’s weenie Thor then this one goes to the empire for the sheer power of the force. Sure, the might of the empire’s troops and tech is overwhelming in scale but not in efficiency… Hulk smashes, Cap bashes, Iron Man lazers, Arrow sights, and Widow bites any and all troopers and walkers with ease. Then a force user shows up… good game guys, you just lost. “Hulk Smash” … force persuade. A nice force user goes “you aren’t angry.” Cue sad walking away music. A mean one says you are angry at everyone but me… Next, what… Widow and Arrow? Arrows done with one volley of stray scenery and Widow joins the dark side with a wave of the hand. Cap’s shield gets stopped in mid air, then is flung miles away. Boyscouts with super serum aren’t immune to a sound choking from a distance while levitated in the air. And in comes Iron man… “That won’t work on me. My suit is too HRRGURRK” Vader responds, “Really, It works across fleets through holocommunicators… you think it won’t work through your suit?” Every Avenger handled in a few seconds… with only Thor left. Lightning? No, dark jedi play with that for fun. Hammer? Maybe, but at the rate lightsabers trump hands I say doubtful. Mjolnir is awesome and all, but it usually requires hands to use. All I’m saying is unless Thor gets to quote himself from Civil War when he and Iron Man were exchanging words and Tony claims that they are equals and Thor shatters his armor in an instant saying, “I’m a God. I was always holding back.” then the Avengers assembled cannot beat one dark jedi, especially when the first thing they do is grab the mind of an angry hulk and bend it to their will. Just sayin’.

  54. First off, I don’t think the empire would view earth as enough of a threat to warrant full force. I can see Thor out in space countering deathstar blasts with Mijolnr while Hulk has fun grabbing enemy ships and throwing them at each other to cause big booms. Then Stark and captain America goe on board the deathstar and get into epic fight with vader while the rest fight the storm troopers. Considering their track record with actually hitting people with their blasters, I’d wager that Hawkeye alone could stop the storm troopers. Anywho I say Avengers win.

  55. Ploughed Jester: the Avengers assembled cannot beat one dark jedi, especially when the first thing they do is grab the mind of an angry hulk and bend it to their will.

    I realize the thread is getting a little tl;dr, but it’s already been established that Hulk is not vulnerable to Force Persuasion. Professor X (who on one or two occasions has dominated nearly every person on the face of the Earth at once) couldn’t do it, so a Dark Jedi (who can’t manage a single strong willed person) certainly couldn’t.

    Ploughed Jester: Lightning? No, dark jedi play with that for fun.

    Again, as I said before, Luke took the Emperor’s force lightning and walked away without significant injury. The lightning they play with is not the same voltage that The God of Thunder will be bringing down on them.

    There is nothing the empire can throw at them that the Avengers haven’t dealt with a thousand times over. But the empire has never had to fight a force like the Avengers. If the empire is really REALLY lucky, the battle will be worth of a summer crossover event. More likely, a three issue story arc that ends with the empire running home with it’s metaphorical tail between its legs.

  56. Joel: Considering their track record with actually hitting people with their blasters, I’d wager that Hawkeye alone could stop the storm troopers.

    I was just about to post about that!

    Cracked.com once published an article explaining why the stormtroopers’ aim is so bad when they’re gunning down Luke & friends, while in other situations they have no problems hitting sandcrawlers and rebel footsoldiers.

    Basically, the article says, it’s psychological: while the stormtroopers’ full uniforms cover their full bodies and make them look like faceless drones, our plucky heroes wear neither mask nor helmet nor uniform at any point when the stormtroopers can see them. Since the stormtroopers are faceless drones, even the nicest of the good guys can gun them down by the dozens and never lose any sleep about it. They’re not humans with dreams and aspirations, they’re just evil obstacles to be overcome. But when a stormtrooper sees the heroes, they’re not drones, they’re individuals. They have their own faces, their own fashions, their own personalities. These are humans with thoughts and dreams, and the more human something looks, the harder it is to kill without feeling horrible afterwards. It’s actually a proven phenomenon in wars: one study found that well over half of the soldiers wouldn’t fire at all, and those who did often missed.

    So it’s just possible that the heroes in Star Wars only survived because those faceless clones didn’t have quite enough of their free will and humanity conditioned out of them. If we take this theory as fact, it could also be an important factor in the Empire’s fight with the Avengers.

    How human do the Avengers look? Iron Man looks like he could be a robot, so even the most conscience-afflicted stormtrooper shouldn’t have too much trouble aiming to kill. Hulk is humanoid and doesn’t cover it up, but he’s green and giant and probably won’t be too hard for most of the stormtroopers to dehumanize enough to shoot him, too. Cap wears a mask that covers most of his face. Nick Fury has an expression-obscuring eye patch. Thor’s face isn’t covered much with or without his helmet, but he does at least wear obvious battle gear, looks like a warrior, and therefore, again, shouldn’t be too hard to dehumanize into “evil enemy coming towards me, shoot to kill!”

    That’s almost all of the Avengers who would probably be under more precise and heavy fire than our regularly scheduled Star Wars gang. So drawing inferences from the stormtroopers’ inability to shoot a few rebels may not be entirely reliable here. Yes, Thor and maybe Hulk could probably withstand a lot of stormtrooper fire, but I doubt the others would hold out very long at all, and even our two big meatshields couldn’t hold out forever, especially once the Empire got the big guns out.

  57. Kelex: it’s already been established that Hulk is not vulnerable to Force Persuasion.Professor X (who on one or two occasions has dominated nearly every person on the face of the Earth at once) couldn’t do it, so a Dark Jedi (who can’t manage a single strong willed person) certainly couldn’t.

    Do we know that Professor X’s mind control works the same way as the Jedi Mind Trick? It’s possible they work on entirely different principles and therefore someone’s immunity to one might not mean immunity to the other. Just a thought. There’s no way to prove it either way, of course, unless we actually get someone to make this Avengers vs. Empire movie we’re talking about here. ;)

  58. logosgal: unless we actually get someone to make this Avengers vs. Empire movie we’re talking about here. ;)

    I would pay good money to see that. And if I was promised a scene of the Hulk tossing Jar-Jar around like he did Loki, I’d even spring for the extra bucks to see it in 3D.

  59. Kelex: Okay, yes, the superhuman Chitauri nearly overwhelmed them with numbers.The merely human Hydra troops try the same trick every other month and it never works.Which of those groups most closely resemble the clone troopers of the Empire?They’re only human.Any of the enhanced Avengers could withstand an infinite number of Stormtroopers.And the human Avengers could handle a few dozen apiece without breaking a sweat.

    Really, when did they appear superhuman? I didn’t even see them change shape, and even in the comics, a baseline Chitauri is pretty mindless (even the Hulk displays more brainpower), and is
    not much stronger than a human. Which means even a baseline Imperial infantry soldier is a bigger threat. Maybe the reason the Chitauri were dropping like flies to Cap, Widow, and Hawkeye (never mind the big guns) was because they really weren’t much of a threat. Okay, the big dragon worm things were kind of impressive, but I’m pretty sure that a couple TIE bombers on strategic bombing runs would inflict more damage.
    Which brings me to yet another point, did anyone see the Chitauri use explosives? The Empire at least gives their troopers a couple HE grenades or even thermal detonators.

    Kelex:Well, since you countered your own argument, I don’t see any need to add more to that.

    Sure, let’s go there. Yeah, the Avengers have had their share of victories against both the Kree and Skrull, but against a full-on invasion? While the Kree-Skrull War might have posed a bit of a threat to the Earth, the fact is that the Kree never launched a military attack on Earth. Usually they just keep sending their spies and scouts down to plan for that eventuality, usually to have them turn and support their new world, and every once in a while, Ronan the Accuser shows up to act menacing and eventually get his butt kicked.

    The Skrulls? Sure, they did invade the Earth in Secret Invasion. Mostly it was an invasion of subterfuge, trying to replace key strategic Earthling individuals, with a military effort coming only at the end. And did the Avengers fight them off? In part. Actually almost every superhuman on Earth took part in fighting the Skrull off. Three (three!!!) Avengers teams, the X-Men, Fantastic Four, SHIELD, the Thunderbolts, various minor teams and solo heroes, and even full-on super-villains like the Wrecking Crew helped to fight off the Skrull threat. There were hundreds of costumed individuals fighting the Skrull, and even then, it took Norman Osborn killing their queen for the Skrulls to surrender. Again, I’m not putting much stock into six people, even ones with superpowers (and only a few of them at that), fighting off an entire Galactic Empire.

  60. I know a blast from the Death Star is big concerns, and with validity. Here I suppose is my thoughts about it….#1 Do the Avengers know theres going to be a fight??? If not then I don’t imagine its too hard to blow them and earth up if they don’t even know theres a fight to be had. #2 Whats the range on that thing? Do they have to be as close as the moon or can they be beyond pluto?

    That said…if my Thor ability list is accurate, that tub of blond hair and viking pilage can open up portals with his Uru mallet. Soooooo i don’t see whats stopping him from opening up a portal and ‘absorbing’ a death star blast.

  61. Myro: Really, when did they appear superhuman?

    Oh, I dunno, maybe it was when they were jumping onto buildings, climbing them the same way the Hulk did, by just digging into the stonework. Granted, that doesn’t automatically put them on the same strength level as the Hulk, but I would think it would put them somewhere between Spider-Man and Doc Samson. I don’t know about Chitauri in the comics, I’ve only seen them on film, but they were certainly more than human. So if the Avengers could even TRY to hold the line against a horde of Chitauri, they would have no trouble whatsoever with any number of Stormtroopers the emperor wanted to throw at them.

    You’re right in that the Avengers rarely have to fight off an alien invasion on Earth. They usually take the fight to the aliens, giving their enemies the home court advantage…and still winning.

  62. Big Mac: #1 Do the Avengers know theres going to be a fight?

    My assumption was that the imperial forces were through space, and therefore the Avengers would detect them coming. However, I believe our gracious host has since remarked that he intended the scenario to be more like the movie, with the empire traveling through a portal. In that case, I assume the tesseract would give them the same notice it did for the Chitauri?

    Big Mac: #2 Whats the range on that thing?

    According to This Webpage ( http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWdeathstarbeam.html ) it was fired from a distance of approximately 77,000 kilometers. Which is not to say that’s the maximum range, but that’s the farthest it’s been known to fire. And in the scope of the Solar system, I don’t think that’s very far at all…

    According to This Webpage ( http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds/index.html#range ) however, the maximum firing range is 47,060,000km. So if that’s canonically accurate, then the Death Star would have to be closer than Mars at it’s closest point. (54.6 million km)

  63. Kelex: Oh, I dunno, maybe it was when they were jumping onto buildings, climbing them the same way the Hulk did, by just digging into the stonework.Granted, that doesn’t automatically put them on the same strength level as the Hulk, but I would think it would put them somewhere between Spider-Man and Doc Samson.I don’t know about Chitauri in the comics, I’ve only seen them on film, but they were certainly more than human.So if the Avengers could even TRY to hold the line against a horde of Chitauri, they would have no trouble whatsoever with any number of Stormtroopers the emperor wanted to throw at them.

    You’re right in that the Avengers rarely have to fight off an alien invasion on Earth.They usually take the fight to the aliens, giving their enemies the home court advantage…and still winning.

    Maybe they were superhuman, maybe they were enjoying some pretty cool tech. Simple fact is, the average Chitauri did not look like it posed much of a threat to any of the heroes, and only managed to overcome them through sheer numbers. I’m still saying that the Empire can throw bigger numbers at the Avengers, and shutting the portal down isn’t going to cause them all to drop dead, it’s just going to leave a bunch of angry Imperial soldiers that will continue to shoot the heroes down.
    We’re going to have to agree to disagree on that matter, obviously I’m not convincing you to follow my opinion on this, and I’m not going to agree with yours. I’m still good about having dragged this nerd debate on as long as I have.

    As for the Avengers beating on aliens away from home, there might be something to be said about getting a win on the road when the other team was enjoying home court advantage. There is also something to be said about not worrying about collateral damage when you don’t care whose house you’re trashing because it’s not your own. And even then, the final results are questionable. I’m not going to deny the Avengers have a good track record at getting the upper hand in virtually every encounter, and some of the results were near disastrous for their foes (causing the Kree Supreme Intelligence to fatally crash like an obsolete PC running Windows Vista must have set the Kree back), the fact remains that last I saw, the Kree were still up to their tricks, and the Skrulls were doing just fine until their ill-conceived notion to actually attack Earth directly.

  64. mmm . . . hacking does not require similar operating systems. Hacking requires a form of decryption, a type of connection, and a devious mind.

    The Deathstar DOES appear to require range within a solar system, but not too close.

    No one worry about single combat. Tony would wait till Darth is attacking someone else and go for a kill shot. BW probably would too.

    Our military kill Empire & some Avengers alike if ‘necessary’ by setting off an EMP. No rayshields, no Iron Man, no ships, no planes. Thor’s hammer, if it’s not really all supernatural–gone. Darth goes from whh-whh to rgkk. Stark, if not fighting at the time, rigs it himself. And we get an extra moon.

  65. This thread is so full of nerd win I think I might be giddy.

  66. yeah force-lightning is weak sauce. luke gets zapped for like ten minutes and is barely hurt. actual lighting is something like 2000 degrees hotter than the surface of the sun. and ive already mentioned this but vader doesnt even have force-lighting as he doesnt have arms. cap is was faster than vader. and sure he can grab things with his mind but he still has to lock onto them. seems to me thats why he didnt just grab luke in a hold, walk over to him and calmly take the light-saber out of his hand. tony stark has real-time holographic displays that he can interact with. empire has grainy holograms that cut in and out. something tells me stark tech can easily hack into their systems. tie fighters dont even have shields OR armor. i know some people still have this holy, unassailable image of SW (why i cant imagine. between the prequels and all the godawful EU stuff i cant stand SW) but the avengers would just plan own them.

  67. We’re going to have to agree to disagree on that matter, obviously I’m not convincing you to follow my opinion on this, and I’m not going to agree with yours.I’m still good about having dragged this nerd debate on as long as I have.

    Avengers Assemble…May the force be with you.

  68. Myro: I’m still good about having dragged this nerd debate on as long as I have.

    Well, now there’s something we can both agree on! :)

  69. Kelex: I would pay good money to see that.And if I was promised a scene of the Hulk tossing Jar-Jar around like he did Loki, I’d even spring for the extra bucks to see it in 3D.

    Come to think of it, I bet a lot of people would pay good money to see that. Who’s up for starting a Kickstarter campaign? Anyone here know which end of a camera is up? ;)

  70. The Empire would attack earth because Mace Wendu is the director of SHIELD.

  71. Good one, Nathaniel!

  72. Nathaniel:
    The Empire would attack earth because Mace Wendu is the director of SHIELD.

    Well if that’s the case, I see no reason for them not to just send the Death Star, blow up Earth, then go right back home again. No mess, no fight, no movie. ;)

  73. Ploughed Jester

    Kelex: it’s already been established that Hulk is not vulnerable to Force Persuasion.Professor X (who on one or two occasions has dominated nearly every person on the face of the Earth at once) couldn’t do it, so a Dark Jedi (who can’t manage a single strong willed person) certainly couldn’t.

    Prof X can’t yet Loki can establish some vague influence over Hulk in the Avengers movie early on… Your argument loses some serious points. I agree with logosgal 100%. Various mind controls or persuasion effects work differently. Also, sure, Qui-Gon fails some force persuades but did Vader ever fail one. NO. Heck, he used the force’s power of persuasion to bag Queen Amidala without even doing the hand motion. How do I know it was force persuade, you ask… Does whining about sand ever get anyone any chicks? No. Force Persuade ftw!

    Kelex: Again, as I said before, Luke took the Emperor’s force lightning and walked away without significant injury.The lightning they play with is not the same voltage that The God of Thunder will be bringing down on them.

    Luke handled the force lightning so well for two reasons: 1) He is the most powerful jedi… ever. 2) The emperor didn’t really want him dead. the entire point leading up to that was to turn him dark. What types of experiences turn you dark? Anger, pain, suf-fur-ring… Papa Palpatine was torturing Luke, not trying to kill him. And not to be a jerk… but Thor has more “voltage”? Electrical engineer here… voltage hurts, current kills… so if Palpatine wanted to torture Luke he would use massive voltage and exceptionally low current, because Dark Lords have control like that. Lightning, however, is random. Sure, Thor has power, but lacks control. He lacks discipline… Odin’s entire lesson to his childish boy.

    If we want to stick to films then Empire wins because movie Thor’s a bit of a weenie… If we get to go full continuity and I can start referencing the StarWars Expanded Universe, then I get to use Force Unleashed Vader and woe to the Avengers. If the Empire has to stay movie canon and the Avengers get to stay umpteen years of comic book canon, then obviously Avengers win.

  74. Ploughed Jester

    Jeff Hebert:
    This thread is so full of nerd win I think I might be giddy.

    And yes, all arguments aside; this is the intent of it all is it not. Beating dead horses with force slams and Cap shields until we laugh so hard it hurts.

  75. Ploughed Jester: Prof X can’t yet Loki can establish some vague influence over Hulk in the Avengers movie early on… Your argument loses some serious points.

    Vague in that it doesn’t exist. Loki manipulates people into getting the Hulk where he wants him. On the Helicarrier where his uncontrolled rampage will cause the chaos and destruction Loki wants. This ain’t mind control, this is setting a bull loose in a particular china shop you don’t happen to like.

    Ploughed Jester: Luke handled the force lightning so well for two reasons: 1) He is the most powerful jedi… ever.

    Heh. Not even a little bit. I’m not saying Luke isn’t a powerful Jedi, mind you. I’m saying that’s not how he survived the emperor’s Force Joy-Buzzer. When Yoda blocks Dooku’s lightning and sends it back to him with a wave of his hand, THAT is a badass Jedi using Jedi badassery. When Luke lies on the ground twitching, screaming and smoldering, THAT is a farmboy getting his ass electrocuted.

    Ploughed Jester: 2) The emperor didn’t really want him dead.

    The emperor disagrees. “Now young Skywalker, you will DIE.” He intends to kill Luke. Vader recognizes that he intends to kill Luke. Vader is pulled back from the dark side because he recognizes that the emperor intends to kill Luke. Therefor, the reason Luke is able to withstand the Force Lightning, is because it is withstand-able.

    Ploughed Jester: but Thor has more “voltage”?

    Pretty sure that despite my ignorance of electical engineering, you knew what I meant. Volts, watts, or magical pixy sparky-units, Thor packs more power in his lightning than ANY Force Lighting ever thrown. And Thor only lacks discipline in his attitude. He’s cocky and arrogant because of his skill and power levels.

    Finally, I only ignore the Expanded Universe because it contradicts and invalidates most of the primary Star Wars universe. If Movie Vader had been HALF as powerful as he is in some of the games/comics/toys/badly written fanfic that make up the EU, the empire would never have needed to waste time on such a useless weapon as the Death Star. Vader could just sit in his apartment on Coruscant and Force-Know there are rebels and then Force-Disappear them into nothingness without leaving his chair. It’s kind of like comparing Golden Age Superman with Silver Age Superman. One is a powerful person, the other is the very definition of omnipotence. The stories don’t really make sense if they’re supposed to be the same person.

    Ploughed Jester: And yes, all arguments aside; this is the intent of it all is it not. Beating dead horses with force slams and Cap shields until we laugh so hard it hurts.

    Yes. Absolutely and in all ways, yes.

  76. The rule about good vs. evil always works even when there is a crossover. Good always wins.

  77. Kelex:Loki manipulates people into getting the Hulk where he wants him. On the Helicarrier where his uncontrolled rampage will cause the chaos and destruction Loki wants. This ain’t mind control, this is setting a bull loose in a particular china shop you don’t happen to like.

    True. Loki is a magnificent manipulator who does not always need magical voodoo mind control to get stuff done. However, Loki is at his core basically a whiny kid nursing a sibling rivalry, and I would argue that he is very possibly just a pawn of the Chitauri. I’m pretty sure the Emperor, who is at his core a complete and utter evil force of evil who couldn’t care less who daddy loved best, wouldn’t have too much trouble out-manipulating Loki.

    So I’m still not convinced someone immune to Prof X’s mind control would necessarily be immune to the Jedi Mind Trick. I will say that whatever Hulk’s mental capabilities may be, Dr. Banner is clearly very strong-willed and almost certainly more than equal to any outright mind control a user of the Force is likely to dish out.

    Kelex:The emperor disagrees. “Now young Skywalker, you will DIE.” He intends to kill Luke.

    I think the Emperor does, however, intend to kill Luke painfully, so it’s very possible that he never got the chance to get past the torturing lightning and on to the lethal stuff.

    Ploughed Jester: And yes, all arguments aside; this is the intent of it all is it not. Beating dead horses with force slams and Cap shields until we laugh so hard it hurts.

    Well said!

  78. Ploughed Jester

    Meh, I still say force persuasion and dark side recruitment would work on a being of rage. Oh, and the Luke being the bestest jedi everest was mildly fanboyish sarcasm. He obviously doesn’t become that awesome until much later. Now you DIE is meant to inspire another dark side trait: fear. Intent is forever debateable. Vader killed younglings… slaughtered them in cold blood. It isn’t the threat of death that turns Vader’s heart, but the pure agony and torment.

    Also, my whole Thor argument is based on Thor not being super awesome Thor, but crappy weenie toned down Thor. If it’s real god sauce Thor then he alone wins as deus ex machina kicks in, but if it’s weenie strong but not super god strong, weather imitation, half a** Thor then he’s got nothing. If it’s the Thor that can’t beat Iron Man with nary a single thought, he’s a punk… Civil War Thor, however, is the end all who needs no team at all.

    Last, love the invoking of the good v. evil rule. Good call. But can I now invoke the underdog rule, but not based on numbers of the forces involved, but instead on the expectation of victory. See, the polls show 70-30 in favor of Avengers… so the only way the Avengers can win is by everyone voting for the Empire so that the Avengers can get the underdog victory. Hurry everyone, switch the polls in favor of the Empire so the Avengers can win!

  79. um–the underdog isn’t defined by who’s popular–thank goodness. The underdog is more often defined by those with less arrogance. . uh oh.

    Some points my spouse brought up . . . Jarvis might have been able to hack Deathstar alone. Or find the repeated weakpoint. Odin might have given Thor portal control to save Thor. Cap’n’s shield might’ve jammed the Deathstar weapon and incinerated the Deathstar if delivered.

    Now fun: if 12 Ewoks on 1 stormtrooper is enough, then 6 NYPD with billys or 4 Bobbys (used to not needing guns) . . . so 1 EMP burst in NY and an angry mob [no internet for a MONTH?! KILL!]

  80. Civil War Thor, however, is the end all who needs no team at all.

    Civil War Thor? you mean the crummy clone that Stark and Reed Richards built that got his head punched off by Hercules? ooookaaay…

  81. Ploughed Jester

    barbario: Civil War Thor? you mean the crummy clone that Stark and Reed Richards built that got his head punched off by Hercules? ooookaaay…

    My apologies, I have a bad habit of considering anything involving the hero registration as civil war in origin. I’m talking about returned Thor, who raises portions of Asgard in the Midwest. The Thor that effortlessly trounces old Iron Man for deigning to clone a god. Clones are definitely crappy. In all reality true Thor is untouchable. He survives the cores of suns without injury. For Odin’s sake he can channel the power of Mjolnir to create god blasts and thermo-blasts capable of destroying entire planets… That’s right, Thor’s hammer has all the power of the Death Star and more, plus it’s nearly indestructible and doesn’t require a crew. But this Thor isn’t fair. No argument can win out… So we have to assume its a severely restricted nearly mortal Thor, otherwise this is a waste.

    Also, the underdog thing was really just a bit of silly nonsense. Necessary from time to time.

  82. Anger is the path of the darkside therefor hulk would turn evil

  83. Sauronminion

    At the start of the battle, thor and Iron man take on the emp and vader while cap, widow, hawkeye, wolverine, and hulk attack the stormtroopers. On the grould, widow dies within minutes, taking only about a dozen troops with her. Hawk goes down next. Cap survives for longer, taking out an at-st or two, but his shield can’t cover him completely against legions of troops. He dies when a stormtrooper shoots him in the back while he is trying to force entry into another walker. Ditto for wolverine. He slashes a few, but is killed eventually. Hulk fights on, doing a lot of damage, but is killed by a thermal detonator (stormies carry them on their belts-the white cylinders). Meanwhile, iron man is force choked by vader. Thor gets in a scrap with the emp, but his lightning powers are nullified by the force (see star wars III). The emp manages to use his mind manipulation on him long enough to keep him down so vader can chop his head off.

  84. Sauronminion

    Oops! wolverine wasn’t part of the avengers team.. guess he doesn’t count.